Episode 168: Tom D'Eath, Part 4

The conversation widens beyond speed for Episode 168.  We start part 4 by comparing the different hulls that Tom raced for Bernie Little and Budweiser Racing. Tom then relives the stock car crash that fractured ended his driving career. Then he walks us through the reinvention: launching APBA’s vintage and historic category and behind-the-scenes story of saving Detroit’s Gold Cup when the experts said it was finished. Subscribe, share with a fellow speed fan, and leave a review with the moment that surprised you most.

*Photo from Scott D'Eath Collection

Chapters

• 2:06 T2 vs T3: Handling And Comfort
• 3:55 Prop Experiments That Changed Everything
• 6:35 Learning Backsteer And Corner Control
• 13:45 Air Brakes, Canards, And Controls
• 20:45 The Car Crash And Aftermath
• 26:08 Saving Detroit’s Gold Cup
• 32:10 Buying Hydroprop Assets
• 37:50 Rivalries, Respect, And Legends
• 47:35 The Two Joneses And A Revolution
• 54:00 Gratitude And Closing

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 2:06

So let's take it off right where we left it off last time in part four of my interview and the conclusion with Tom to E. Well, I've always been curious about the the differences between the T2 and T3 that you raised.

SPEAKER_01: 2:22

T2 was definitely uh flight a flight ear boat. Cockpit was uh real jam, um not comfortable for me at all because it was made for Jimmy, who was a little tiny guy.

SPEAKER_04: 2:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 2:34

And so um the creature comforts and T2 I I dealt with, but I didn't particularly care for. Uh because they had moved everything as much as they could in every direction, but it still wasn't comfortable. So, but T2 was a very, very loose boat, very flighty. T three uh when I first started driving it was very much waterborne, uh smooth water boat. Uh bow steered a lot. Um we changed a whole bunch of stuff on that. We moved the ram wing forward. We actually got that thing running like a rocket ship. And yeah, it that boat was the break in the bottom was further back. We started moving weight back. Um you gotta watch the Pringle shootout in 1990. That's where three of us were on a flag start. Watch that race and you'll see how good that turbine three was. But we only had two pr two propellers that worked with that gear combination because that was actually an experimental thing that Ronnie Ronnie wanted to try with Turbine 2, and when we put it on Turbine 2, it was just absolutely disastrous. It ill handling wouldn't work at all. And we got to Kansas City, I got to thinking and I talked to Dewey Norton, the engine guy, and because basically we were turning the prop shaft slower, but the engine higher RPM, but we were running way more pitch, way more diameter, way more rake. And so I said, let's just give that a try in turbine three and see what it does. And I'll tell you what, I left the pit area testing. We had no idea it was going to be as good as it turned out. But I left the pit area just cruising down the front straightaway, probably doing somewhere between 95 and 105, you know. And I poked it into the corner at cruising speed, and it wanted to swap ends on me, and it scared to shit out of it. Whoa, whoa! So I backed off and I said, What the hell is that? You know. Now mind you, I'm not even running 110. I've not even warmed up the the oil in the gearbox yet. And so I'm going on the back stretch now, trying to think, why in the hell what is this thing doing? Why did it do that? You know? So now I'm ready for it. And I go on to the next corner, and I'm going maybe 110, 115, still going slow because I'm not even completed the first lap yet. And I turned it into the corner, and sure enough, the back of the boat kind of gets up and starts to spin around on me. And I backsteered it to the right as hard as I could, and I gave it a little throttle, and the whole thing walked around the corner pretty damn good, and I unwound it at the X of the turn. Now, man, I'm still not going really fast yet. Wow, that was pretty cool. I could do that. So I picked up the speed for going back in the turn one and two again, and I wasn't going 200, but I was doing probably a buck 45 to 150. And sure enough, when I poked it into the corner, it wanted to hook again. So I backsteered it again, only I stayed on the gas and gave it more throttle, it became doable. So then the next straightaway I figured, well, shit, I might as well go in here as fast as this sunbitch will go. And so I'm running down the backstretch there at over 200, and I poke it into the corner, and sure enough, it starts to hook again. And so I start back steering it to the right again, and staying right flat footed on the gas, and I walk it around the corner, unwind it at the exit of the turn, and now it's a rocket ship down the front straight away. And I'm having a blast. And this thing is really cool to drive, you know. So uh uh I did that test, and of course, you know, we set fast time, and so I I downloaded the information that I, you know, verbally to my you know, Ronnie and and Dewey Norton, and we're all mystified that this thing is even doing what it's doing. But it actually like shifted gears, and what was happening is when I poked it into the corner with that propeller with the big diameter and the and a large pitch, it was actually running up on the tips and picking the back of the boat up out of the water, and it was trying to swap ends. And when I was steering hard to the right, I was able to chase it around the corner, if you know what I mean. Mind you, I'm by myself in smooth water. So, anyway, and then when you got going down the straightaway at the exit of the turn, I've got the steering wheel straight again, unwound, and as soon as the air starts to take over, it actually starts lifting the front of the boat and burying the propeller in the water, and that's when it sounded like it was shifting. It was like and it was just hauling ass down the straightaway then. And of course, as soon as I got to the next corner and started to poke it in, I'm ready for it to do the same thing, which it did, and I immediately backsteered it but stayed flat on the floor all the way around the corner, and kind of a timing thing, unwinding the steering wheel at the exit of the turn. And of course, you're slowed down enough, but the back of the boat is high and it's it's like accelerating really fast. But when the air starts to pick up the front of the boat and shove the back in the water, again it's like shifts. It's like getting the propeller in the meat of the water, and now you're really going fast, okay? So you gotta watch the we those propellers, we broke, we won both races, Kansas and the next one at Tri-Cities. And we we we didn't we didn't break, we cracked both of those propellers. So that combination was done for the rest of the year. But we were on to something. You follow me?

SPEAKER_04: 8:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 8:38

We were on to something. And unfortunately, when I got I tested that same boat in the spring, and and Scotty Pierce was testing turbine two and I was testing turbine three before I got hurt in the stock car race, and I got on the boat and I told Ronnie, I said, Ronnie, this thing's gonna run 180 mile an hour in San Diego. You watch. This is a weapon, this is awesome. Well, I never uh explained to Scotty what I was doing and how to get around the corner. When Scotty started driving for Bernie, he liked Turban 2 because it was just the normal old, like the Mr. Pringles ride, only a lot faster.

unknown: 9:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 9:15

Turban three was uh I think Larry Lauderback probably could have driven it, and maybe anybody with some real high-speed conventional experience, because we do that with conventionals. We had exactly what trying to walk around on us, but and uh but I had to get used to it too. And I probably could have taught Scotty if he'd have called me, he never did. He didn't like the boat, so they changed it, they moved the brake forward, they put a false bottom in it, and basically they never ran that combination ever again. And I really do think that was that that would have revolutionized the sport.

SPEAKER_04: 9:49

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 9:51

Moving all that weight back, we're taking friction frictional loading off of each sponson. So it became uh i if you could put scales on the back and each sponson, when you move weight back, you take weight off the sponsons, you follow me?

SPEAKER_03: 10:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 10:07

And so the ground effects of the of the pushing between the sponsons and the water becomes less, so less drag, less friction. That's why it was so s so good around the corners.

SPEAKER_04: 10:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 10:20

If you watch that race at the shootout, you walk I came from first to second, back to first again, outside a chip. That's how good it was.

SPEAKER_02: 10:31

Wow. I'm gonna go back and watch that after. I I remember I've watched that before, but I'm gonna go back and watch that again after.

SPEAKER_01: 10:37

And you'll see in the one corner, the 3-4 corner of the first lap. Remember, I'm on winding the steering wheel and I hit some bad water, and I had to keep turning to the right to save the boat. And a lot of people, especially the announcers, are saying, Well, if you didn't turn right, you know, well, guess what, buddy? I didn't tell you what I was doing in there, but I was pretty busy. But I had to turn right to save the boat. You follow me?

SPEAKER_02: 11:04

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01: 11:05

That's another trick that Ray Gastner taught me. A lot of people, if you and I'll try to explain this to you right now on the telephone, about blowing over in the corner. If you poke the boat in the corner and you're turning right, the rudder is is slicing through the water. And if you don't do any, let's say the right sponsor comes up in the air and it's starting to blow over, if you don't do something, it's gonna blow over. Because the rudder is just gonna cut right through the water and not create any drag. And the wrong thing to do is to turn to the right, but that's the right thing to do to bring the sponson back down. If you turn to the right, you create drag at the back of the boat, and when you create drag at the back of the boat, it's like somebody pulling on the rudder, lifting the transom, and that right sponsor comes back down again. And I've done that a lot to save my ass, trust me. And I see a lot of these guys blown over in the corner, and they don't know the little trick that I used to do.

SPEAKER_02: 12:10

Yeah, it's that's a pretty common area for people to flip an unlimited so the right sponsor comes up and they don't correct and it just keeps carrying and then it goes over.

SPEAKER_01: 12:19

So yeah, they think that if you back off, it'll help. No, it doesn't. You got to turn opposite lock to create drag at the transom so that you're actually uh pulling at the transom, which makes the front of the boat go back down again. I save my ass a lot. There's in fact I've got still shots of me in Tri-Cities, which is a race I did win when I got caught in a rooster tail like Vilwok just did at Gunnersville. And uh I was turning to you can even see the rudder to the right, and I saved it. I got it back down on a blew a bunch of holes in the side of the boat. We fixed this with beer cartons, but I did go out in the final eat and win it. But I saved my point is I saved it from crashing.

SPEAKER_02: 13:05

Right, right. Yeah, I think that was in the blue the blue bridge train.

SPEAKER_01: 13:08

Yeah, did I get up and go through a bunch of rooster tails? Hell yes, I did.

SPEAKER_03: 13:11

You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 13:12

I'm I went Ray Gastner told me you have to switch off race and go into survival, and then once you get through survival, you can go back to race again, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 13:22

That's right.

SPEAKER_01: 13:22

And so I was switching off racing and going to survival when I was going through those antics at Tri-Cities. And then, of course, once I gathered it back up, then I could go back to race again, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_02: 13:37

Wow. Well, talking about talking about the T2, I believe that was the boat that had the nickname Thumper. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01: 13:46

Yes, it had the nickname Thumper, and Tim Ramsey's daughter gave it gave that name to the boat.

SPEAKER_03: 13:52

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01: 13:52

You gotta remember that it I blew it over in at the Gold Cup, okay?

SPEAKER_03: 13:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 13:57

And I said to my wife and my family, I ain't never doing this again. This is ridiculous, you know. So I figured, well, I'll keep my crew busy putting recovery areas back in the sponsors, but this summit's just never gonna go over backwards again. So and I proved to Ronnie that running it tight, uh uh you go just as fast. You got 3,300 horsepower there, okay? So I ran at Syracuse, New York. I ran we had air brakes on the spar, which were pneumatically operated. And uh and you hit the little clicker switch with my left foot, and it popped up these panels on the spar that were air brakes. In other words, they were basic deflectors that uh uh you know put the wind and made the front of the boat tight to the water. So uh anyway, I told Ronnie when I left the dock, I says all by myself, water's beautiful. I'm gonna run the first lap with the air brakes off. There was no wind in any direction. And so I did like I think it was 158 or 153 or whatever it was. It was, you know, and as soon as I got to the start-finish line for the second lap, I popped the air brakes and I left them open for the whole damn lap. And it was identical. Same idea, you couldn't tell the difference in speed. It was exactly the same. So I had two identical laps, one with no air brakes and one with air brake diploid. And and I won the race because of those air brakes. Uh I had Circus Circus on the inside of me with Prevost, I think, and chip on the outside of me, and we exited uh the final heat on you know uh turn one and two, and down the back stretch we're now looking at a 15 knot uh headwind, you know. As soon as I got to the exit of turn two, I activated the air brakes, and a third of the way down the straightaway I had each one of them I could see in my peripheral vision, one on one side, one on the other. And then all of a sudden I didn't see them anymore, and I looked on my mirror so I couldn't see them anymore. And when I got to the corner, three, four corner, I'm exiting that turn and I see they're not even there yet. Well, I had to get out of it because they were they were flighty and I wasn't. I just I was pinned to the water. But anyway, long story short, I from that point on always kept uh the boat as snug as I possibly could. I never wanted to get it blown over again. And uh we did more stuff to uh operate the canards uh and and the air brakes and stuff. We evolved that even better as as time went on, especially in 1990, you know, when when I was able to we we put a toe strap on the left pedal. There's a whole lot of you know uh technical stuff that we did there that helped. Uh we went from a uh you know a dimmer switch, uh, which worked the best as what we ended up with. We had a starter button, like when I hit that, uh it would start to deploy the air brakes, but uh you couldn't keep my foot on the starter button to keep the brakes where I wanted it. So we put in a switch off of an old Cadillac for making the lights brighter and dimmer. It's like click-click, they're on, and click, click, it's off, you know. So when I click-click it, they went fully deployed, and my foot could be jumping around the left foot, and they'd still stay up, if you know what I mean. And then if I wanted them down, I click-click again. You follow me? And then they were tracked, they were pneumatically operated. So and then I also had a toe strap put on the alieron uh so that I could pull for lift and push and eliminate the trim switches on the steering wheel completely.

SPEAKER_04: 17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:54

So there's a lot of things that we did that made it even more drivable friendly for me.

SPEAKER_02: 17:59

Yeah. Well, I mean, you did you did what you needed too, because like you said, that was 88, it was the only time he flipped um weather.

SPEAKER_01: 18:07

So I boat, and it was actually uh an axle on the spot the hard wing that bent.

SPEAKER_03: 18:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 18:15

Right. They the crew sent those things out after Cropfield drove the year before and had them solution and healed and reheat treated and checked for magniflux and x-ray and all that kind of stuff. And uh when they came back, they never checked the hardness, and they found out when they solution and healed them, they forgot to heat treat them. So they were dead soft compared to a heat-treated shaft that the canards were mounted to. That's why it bent. It was twisted like a pretzel.

SPEAKER_02: 18:44

Yeah. Well, that's that's out of your control, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 18:47

Oh, yeah. Doug Ford did the calculations and he said at 150 miles an hour it'd be like a 250-pound man jumping on the back of the canard and bending, you know, the shaft, which is what happened, you know.

SPEAKER_04: 19:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 19:03

So anyway. Well, yeah. Uh well, around that time, like you mentioned earlier, '91, uh, you you had a a wreck in a car, car racing accident. Um, and you spent some time racing cars. Uh and unfortunately, I think it stopped with that that wreck. And what can you tell us about your car racing days?

SPEAKER_01: 20:29

Well, in 77, I, you know, I I've always had the inkling to want to race midgets, you know. And uh United States Auto Club came out with a series called Mini Indy or Super V. And they were smaller cars. It was a Saturday race before the Indy Car race. I did have a lot of friends that raced indie cars and and still do today that were former, you know, champions. Johnny Rutherford, Foyt, you know, uh Mike Devin, one of the best crew chiefs in Indy around. And so I was going to those races helping Roger McCluskey, you know, uh Johnny Parsons Jr. uh as a crew member, and they all kind of talked me into getting into the mini indie series, uh which was new for USAC at that time. So uh I got one and uh proceeded to wreck it. And so then I got another one and uh was having fun with it and learning more. The very first race I I took my first uh rear engine car to the it was a Lola. Uh I looked like a fighter pilot on the end of a string until the string broke, you know. And I that was at Milwaukee and I crashed it and be destroyed the car. So I found another vehicle, another Lola, and uh got it ready and finished the season with that car at a much more conservative uh approach. And uh so then I did order an another one brand new. And uh uh and I raced uh that series. Uh and again, I was a novice. I should have started racing go-karts and stuff like that when I was 12, 13, 14, like I did boats, you know, but I didn't. And so uh but it was fun because I was learning new stuff, you know. I was learning new things. That really did help me later on when I was driving the Budweiser, you know, running a cleaner line into the corners, out of the corners, stuff like that. So and uh but anyway, so and then I ran uh uh I got a midget too, a USAC midget. And I did better on dirt than I did on pavement. But obviously when you're going to uh the mini indie races or the or this or the midget races, you know, you're looking at forty some people time in, you know. And they're all trying to do the same thing as win the race. And of course uh I didn't even start racing cars till I was in my thirties. So I was way behind the curve of these younger guys.

SPEAKER_03: 23:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:06

So but I was having fun. And uh I did get an opportunity uh late to drive uh a stock car. And I drove Rockingham, uh, Richmond, Charlotte, and unfortunately I got in a multi-car wreck at Charlotte, uh, my second race there, and uh ended up uh breaking C2, same thing that Cropfield broke. So I was in a halo for three months and a hard collar for three months and a soft collar and it pretty much ended my racing career because I do I don't have any ligament attachment anymore. So uh if I were to get involved in a similar type of accident, even on the street, uh your ligaments help keep your head on your shoulders, you know, and keep your spinal cord from breaking. Fortunately for me, my break was a tension break. Had it been a compression fracture where it would implode internally. Um in other words, my head tried to snap off my spine, so it was like you know, pulled away. Where Stephen Reeves, Superman, when he dove, uh whatever he did, he imploded his C2 and he became a quadruple. I was lucky. Mine was separated by uh a hundred thousand, so I still have the x-rays. So when I broke C2, um basal skull fracture, I could have died, but I didn't.

SPEAKER_02: 24:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 24:37

So very God spared me.

SPEAKER_02: 24:39

Yeah, yeah. Very unfortunate to go through that process, but fortunately it's not worse, right? And you're still alive, still here today to tell your tales.

SPEAKER_01: 24:49

God had different plans for me. I started the vintage in a story category after that, and then and that led to saving the Gold Cup races in Detroit. Uh they went bankrupt in 03, and and basically all the uh you know, newspapers and magazines, Crane's Magazine, which is a uh a magazine that all the business leaders read every morning, you know. That said, it'll take a miracle. The boat races aren't gonna happen this year, and so stick a fork in it, it's done. Uh there will be no hydroplane races this year. And that was uh I guess we did a miracle because in six weeks later I I formed a new group and my late wife and I spearheaded the whole thing and we saved the that's like saving the Indy 500, if you know what I mean. That's more proud of that than anything I ever did behind the steering wheel because first of all, the opportunity to save uh uh uh a sport you loved and and save a tradition that was going on in Detroit for a hundred years and uh to bring it back. And so I did it oh three, four, and five and pulled it out of the red and put it in the black big time.

SPEAKER_04: 26:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 26:04

So that that you know God had plans for me other than driving racing vehicles.

SPEAKER_04: 26:09

So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:11

Well the relic vintage historic category is is probably one of the most popular categories in APBA today.

SPEAKER_02: 26:19

And I is yeah, I ran it for about 14 years. Yeah, it's amazing to see inboard racing and unlimited class, all these different classes, all these vintage boats coming out now. And um it's it's really uh fun to have at the races and um it brings back a lot of memories and brings another aspect to the sport that that's needed.

SPEAKER_01: 26:42

Yeah. No, and I've I'm proud of the fact that uh 1993, I you know, I got the the uh APBA commission to approve me to start the category, which I did. Wrote the rules on everything.

SPEAKER_02: 26:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:57

Not the ones they have today, but the original ones, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 27:00

Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for getting that going and and preserving a lot of boats. I'm sure that inspired a lot of people to preserve boats that probably wouldn't be here today.

SPEAKER_01: 27:10

Well, I took a lot of worthless boats that were worth nothing and made them valuable for sure. In fact, I own a couple of them.

SPEAKER_02: 27:20

Well, well, some something around that time, I think it was early 2000s, you got to be a part of the organization that was running the sport at the time. I can't remember if it was Hydropop or UHRA. It went through several names at the time. Yeah, and I remember being very excited at that time because I think you were named chairman or had a leadership position. And I knew it was your possess your passion and knowledge that you were going to propel the sport forward um a pun there, I guess. But what can you tell us about that? About that time.

SPEAKER_01: 27:54

Well, you're right. Here's how it happened. I remember I started vintage and historic. Yeah. And uh uh initially I was doing uh what I called tag along. In other words, I was tagging along, vintage and historic was tagging along an inboard race or an unlimited race, uh the sanction-wise, insurance-wise. Eventually, uh I wanted to get to standalone events. What I mean by that is uh strictly a vintage event, uh not tagging along an inboard hydroplane race or an unlimited hydroplane race. And so I started doing that, and I did Lake George and Lake Winnipesaukee, so I had experience now of putting on standalone events without a boat race being there, okay? And these were fresh, brand new locations at downtown Lake George, New York, and also Lake Winnipes, and other other sites I did too. Well, when I saved the Gold Cup race in 2003 and pulled him out of bankruptcy and did the 04 event, which is the hundredth anniversary of the Gold Cup, Gary Garbrick and Bernie were partners, you know, in in the Hydroprop, I guess is what it was called back then.

SPEAKER_02: 29:13

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01: 29:13

Bernie Bernie had enough of Gary Garbrick, so he wanted out, you know, Gary was creating a lot of uh turbulence in his own sport of the unlimited with the piston boats and the turban boats, you know, with restrictions on it wanted to do on everything. Right. And so there was a lot of turmoil, there was talk of uh outlaw breaking away, which eventually the sport did, but in 2004, again, I put on the the Detroit race very successfully, very financially successful. And that's when Charlie Strang and I think uh let's see, Charlie Strang, uh Edgar Rose, these are the old power of APBA. Stan Fitz, they saw the the problems that were going on with the unlimited category and Gary Garbrick. And so basically they had a Dutch uncle talk with Gary Garbrick and said, You need to take a back seat and you need to put Tom Deet in charge of the sport because there were already races that year that were breaking away from APBA. Um I think Pasco broke away, Seattle did not, St. Clair, Michigan did not, and San Diego broke away. So they put me uh asked if I would be interested in running the sport. Um and Gary was gonna take a back seat and I would get uh paid from Hydro Prop for my services and so I decided, yeah, what the hell I can do that, you know. So I did run uh

unknown: 31:02

St.

SPEAKER_01: 31:03

Clair, Michigan, and I did run Seattle. But it was there was enough undercurrent with the owners that even though I was very successful at paying them lots of money for the Gold Cup race for the last two years, they had other ideas of where they wanted to go. In the meantime, I was negotiating with Gary Garbrick to buy all the assets of Hydrop, which was the rescue boats, uh the clocks, the semi-trucks and trailers, the timing equipment, the buoys, everything you'd need to put on a race, you know. He was still alive, and uh he was reluctant to sell it to me for$220,000, which was my offer from Detroit River Regatta Association.

SPEAKER_04: 31:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 31:54

Anyway, he dropped dead on the golf course. I don't know if he died on the he had a heart attack dead on the golf course. So Trent Ling, his attorney, uh now was responsible for the Garbrick family's assets, which included Hydrop. Uh he had visions of taking over the sport and running. We all kind of went to San Diego to talk to the owners to stop the nonsense of outlaw racing. Anyway, they didn't like Trent Ling, and they didn't really like me because they barred me from the pit area in San Diego. So I had to watch from the um pleasure area.

SPEAKER_03: 32:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 32:40

And uh and so bottom line, when I went home, I had and they didn't like Trent Ling for sure. Uh they seemed to be gravitating towards Sam Cole, and I knew what a crook he was, so I didn't want no part of him. So I just kind of stood in the wayside and started to do my own thing. And uh I ended up negotiating with Trent Ling and bought all the assets of Hydrop um for$180,000 instead of$220,000. I say I, I didn't. Detroit River Regatta, which was the nonprofit organization that I formed to save the races, they ended up uh paying that bill. Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 33:22

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 33:23

So anyway, um the$220,000. I got a bargain because I got it for$180,000. And uh uh everything, the semis, the trailers, the clocks, the computer stuff, the fuel flow stuff for the turbines, um rescue boats and trailers. There were two of them, uh, all that stuff, all the archival stuff. Uh Judy and I loaded up all the the movie footage and the TV footage from uh uh after the war all the way to present. That was all our stuff. And uh Judy and I moved it all to the and a display boat. I bought a display boat for the Tide Display Boat that Gary owned, and I paid$225,000 for that, and I brought it to Detroit and gave it to Detroit River Regatta Association. That's one of the last things I did. It was uh you know a mock-up boat, but and it's all painted red now, and I think it says Miss DYC on it. But Judy, I actually bought it and gave it to uh Detroit River Regatta.

SPEAKER_04: 34:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:28

So and of course, that's when we exited the sport too, and the Gold Cup race I'm talking about in Detroit. Uh I ran it in 03, 4, and 5.

SPEAKER_04: 34:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:38

And uh I left them with a ton of money and Judy's recipe book on how we did everything and who we dealt with.

SPEAKER_02: 34:45

Yeah. And uh and it's no, yeah, it's so sad that they're not racing in Detroit anymore. I've I've never gotten experienced being to a Detroit race, and I know there's so many fans out there that are wanting that back. And hope hopefully we'll get back, but I'm not holding my breath for it.

SPEAKER_01: 35:06

Yeah, I don't think you should hold your breath. The people that have it now, there's only three people that are in charge of it, and that's uh Doug Bernstein, the lawyer, good friend of mine, uh a big fan, but not much for business. Uh and Bruce Motti's a PR guy from the University of Michigan, but he only wanted to ever get paid. He didn't want to do anything for free.

SPEAKER_04: 35:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 35:30

Mark Weber, who likes to tell everybody how good he is, but basically, and I love the family, don't get me wrong, the Weber, I love Mike, Mark, and his whole family. But basically, for the last six years, they've done nothing. So I did the event in six weeks and pulled them out of the red and put them in the black. And this is no bullshit. I left them with$900,000 in the bank, all the assets of Hydro Prop,$330,000 in accounts receivable and all bills paid.

SPEAKER_04: 35:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 35:59

When I turned it over to the board. The last person I put on the board was Jim Scheibel, the president of Chrysler Jeep Superstores.

SPEAKER_02: 36:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:07

And that was in the end of 05 season.

SPEAKER_02: 36:11

Wow. Wow, 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_00: 36:14

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 36:15

Yeah. Geez.

SPEAKER_00: 36:17

This race has been going on since 1916.

SPEAKER_02: 36:21

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 36:22

1916. Not on my route did it stop.

SPEAKER_02: 36:26

Right. Oh man.

SPEAKER_00: 36:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 36:31

So well, going back to your racing days, you you raced against many talented individuals, um, both with and against, and uh a lot of big names. I was hoping I could just say a name and maybe could share a story uh or your memory of racing with or against those people.

SPEAKER_01: 36:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 36:50

First on my list, I have Dean Chenowith.

SPEAKER_01: 36:53

Gentleman's gentleman, just like George Simon. Um I never really raced against him in limited inboards, but uh a class act as sportsman on the race course, I know.

SPEAKER_02: 37:05

Yeah. How about Jim Cropfield?

SPEAKER_01: 37:09

Hard charger. Uh definitely was a stand on the gas guy. Um uh he would give you almost enough uh to be legal, if you know what I mean. In tight situations, yeah. He would he would leave me almost not enough room and on purpose, which is great. I may be I never did that to anybody, but but he was really good at uh making you work hard to get around him. And he was a hard-charging guy. He had a temper, but uh on the race course he was phenomenal. He was really a great driver. How about Chip Hanower? You want the truth, or you want me to sugarcoat it?

SPEAKER_02: 37:56

The floor is yours. I always I always I always ask for the truth.

SPEAKER_01: 38:02

And there's two drivers that I did not look forward to to being with on the race course, and uh they were I probably shouldn't even say this, but Terry Turner and Chip were not exactly the cleanest racers that I ever raced against. That's a that's a polite way of putting it. Okay, okay, okay. Don't get me wrong, they stood on the gas, both of them, but uh but uh they did stuff on the race course that uh I think sportsmanship uh should have been adhered to and it wasn't.

SPEAKER_02: 38:40

Wow, okay, okay. Um Bill Cantrell.

SPEAKER_01: 38:45

Never raced against Bill. Uh I admired his career. Um uh obviously he drove at Indianapolis, which uh anybody that that races would yearn to just go around the track, let alone race there, and he did it twice.

SPEAKER_04: 39:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 39:01

So uh but us kids really looked up to him uh as well as also Bob Hayward and uh some of the other legends of the Detroit uh area. How about Larry Lauterbach? Larry Lauterbach and I could run deck to deck. Uh I don't care whether it's Grand Prix or whatever, and we would never do anything uh wrong to each other. We would put on some unbelievable races, and uh him and I I would have no trouble running 10 feet away from all the way around the race course, and him to me, one of the one of the most underrated and best drivers I've ever raced against.

SPEAKER_02: 39:46

Yeah, that's fun when you have that level of trust with someone, right?

SPEAKER_01: 39:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_02: 39:51

Bernie Little.

SPEAKER_01: 39:54

He was a take no prisoner's owner, uh, owner. Um I mean, if you weren't useful to him, you were the enemy. And uh and if you were a tool and he had no use for you, you were lucky if you made it back in the toolbox. Was he good to me when I drove for him? Yes, he was. He was is is is he was really good to me and my family. Uh, when I was against him and driving against him, I was his arch rival, and he didn't like me worth two squirts of coon shed. But we helped each other when he needed help, and I certainly needed the golden ride to finish my career off. So I will always love the man for that. He gave me the equipment finally um to win races with, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 40:44

He did.

SPEAKER_01: 40:46

Yeah. How about Mark Tate? I never really uh, yes, we did uh race and unlimited, but he wasn't in the similar equipment, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_02: 40:57

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 40:58

Um uh I did help Mark a lot in his early career. Um, you know, he drove the zero for um uh which he set the world record with in St. Pete, and uh his father was instrumental in him making it to the Unlimiteds. But uh I think that uh between driving the stock seven liter, which I have nothing to do with, that was Jimmy Deal's boat, but um he uh we went to St. Pete with the Miss Zero, and Tom Funka and his wife Maria owned the boat, and we had two motors for the boat. I was kind of like the crew chief on it, and uh we tested with the Ford, which was a new motor coming out, and we tested with the Chevrolet, and then we put the Ford back in it, and then he was testing it. Uh, this was before the race, and blew it over backwards and landed upside down and smashed it. He was thrown clear and parachute worked, and so he was sore and bruised, but he was okay. And uh the boat got back to the dock, and we got it back on the trailer, and it was a mess. The deck had fractured everywhere, and the calling was screwed up, and everybody said, Well, this thing is done for the weekend. And uh what they forgot is I had friends in St. Pete. Okay, I had a marina there. So uh the one guy that had a wood shop, I got a hold of him right away, and I told Tom Funk and Maria, you guys go to dinner and have fun. Um, don't worry about your boat, I'll have it ready in the morning. And they all looked at me like, yeah, all right, okay. We've heard ducks fart underwater before. And guess what? I had it all patched up, didn't look pretty, but guess what? Mark Tate went out and ran 97 mile an hour set of world competition record with it.

SPEAKER_02: 42:44

That's a fun story.

SPEAKER_01: 42:45

Yep. So it looked ugly, but it went fast.

SPEAKER_02: 42:49

That's all that matters. All right, how about Scott Pierce?

SPEAKER_01: 42:55

Scotty's such a good friend. Uh, you know, um he actually, I think, cheated himself by sidestepping experience in the earlier years of his racing and got right into unlimited probably quicker than he should have. He wasn't ready for it. But he he did teach himself and learn how to become an unlimited racer, yes. Uh, did he have the Cropfield killer instinct or the Chipanour killer instinct? I'm gonna say probably not. Uh I don't know if he knew how to get the most out of his boat, uh, but uh really a super nice guy, a great friend. I'm so glad I took the Miss Washington, D.C. uh out to Seattle or you know, Mahogany and Merlot. No one knew at that time that we were gonna lose Scotty.

SPEAKER_02: 43:52

No, it was a shock, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 43:53

Yeah, and he never drove a lot back, but I knew he had conventional experience, and and he was so good to me when I came to Seattle uh in 2017, let me hang around his crew, and and I had a dog, which you know they don't allow in the pit area, and we kind of snuck him in. So I just I felt I owed Scotty, plus we were great friends, and I could tell you couldn't get the smile off his face after he drove the Miss Washington, DC. And it was a warm feeling for me because I knew that I was no longer um when I tested the DC, I knew it was the boat was ahead of me, I wasn't ahead of it. There's there comes a time in your racing life when when you know that it's time for you never to get back in a boat again, and that that was uh that was apparent to me l earlier in 2019 when I tested it, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 44:50

Yeah, uh well, yeah, I remember I was actually there at the Mahogner Low. That was a beautiful boat. Um yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 44:58

It's still beautiful, sitting in my garage.

SPEAKER_02: 45:00

Yeah. Good.

SPEAKER_01: 45:03

Scotty.

SPEAKER_02: 45:04

Oh, really? Oh man. Are you gonna bring it back out anytime?

SPEAKER_01: 45:08

I will. Um, I'm not sure where uh or when, but I will. I take it out of the garage and I fire it up, and you know, I obviously you'd have to summarize it and winterize it. Uh but I I like the smell of alcohol and I like to hear the sound of it, and it's ready to go. But uh uh I I'd have to find a qualified driver to put in it.

SPEAKER_03: 45:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 45:31

And uh believe it or not, it's hard to find someone that's got conventional experience that would really know what to do with it. Uh cab over drivers that have never driven a conventional, I'm reluctant to even let them get in this boat, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_02: 45:46

Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure, yeah. It's different, different game.

SPEAKER_01: 45:50

Different for sure.

SPEAKER_02: 45:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 45:53

Uh Ron Brown. Best crew chief, unbelievable. I mean, the guy's a genius, and he'll outwork anybody. Uh he's he was my crew chief for five of my six gold cups, and I called six because three were Canadian. So two with Ronnie, and all three of my Gold Cup wins were with Ronnie, APBA Gold Cups.

SPEAKER_03: 46:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 46:16

The only Gold Cup that I uh Prince Edward Gold Cup that I won without Ronnie was uh Don Ryan and Sonny and the deep Don Ryan's waterback special.

SPEAKER_04: 46:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 46:29

So designed the the Budweiser, Turban II and three. We were onto something. It's a shame that that whole thing didn't happen. I got hurt and and yeah. But basically, we're, I think, on the verge of revolutionizing the sport. Between you and I and the gate post, I don't think the sport's gotten any faster or better since uh you know since 1990.

SPEAKER_02: 46:54

I think basically the speeds are roughly around the same, the same, I think. Yeah. They're just kind of getting different tactics to get there now with the restrictions, but yeah, it hasn't really advanced uh faster since then.

SPEAKER_01: 47:10

Hardly at all. Hardly at all. Yeah. And so uh, I mean, look at look at how Ronnie he designed Turban 2, you know, and they built it in the butt shop. That was not they yes, they used Jones canoes and stuff like that, but basically that was all Ron Brown on the drawboard that did all that. And uh Lauren and Tim and Reinberger and uh Kurt Tavanier and the guys in the shop that were the geniuses, you know, putting all that stuff together. Right. Uh and he designed built propellers. Of course, I built propellers for the Miss US racing team, so Ronnie took it to a whole new level, you know. Uh the props that I designed and built for the Miss US way back in the 70s were archaic and dinosaur looking compared to what he did with the Budweiser team, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 48:07

He made some beautiful equipment.

SPEAKER_01: 48:12

I found Dewey, that's a whole cool story there. But basically, Dewey uh came to the sport when the sport needed Dewey Norton. And uh he made everybody b better in the turbine engine department. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 48:26

George Simon.

SPEAKER_01: 48:30

Oh, the best of the best. Uh Ray Gasner and George Simon are the gentleman's gentleman of the sport, for sure. Uh put yourself in George Simon's shoes back in 1973 to take a 20-some-year-old kid and put him in charge of his unlimited racing team and allow that young man to order a boat from Ron Jones Marine that no one had any faith in, but convinced George that that's the future and the way to go in the sport. And where I'm gonna end this conversation right now about the Miss US, I think there are two people in the sport that have really dictated where the sport went. 1950, Ted Jones came east with the slow motion four, they already set the straightaway record and won the Gold Cup in Detroit in 1950. That was the first prop riding, rooster tail throwing, unlimited hydroplane uh period. And that sent the tone from 1950 until 1975, when the pay and pack, all the boats that won a gold cup, you sat behind the engine, and they were prop riding rooster tail throwing hydroplanes, okay? Right 1976, think about this. The very first time ever that a cab over won a gold cup. Pickle fork cab over.

SPEAKER_02: 50:14

That's true.

SPEAKER_01: 50:14

In 2025, there has been nothing but pickle fork cab overs win the gold cup.

SPEAKER_02: 50:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 50:24

There's never been a sit behind the engine boat, win the gold cup since 1976. And that's the son of Ted Jones that brought that revolution to the sport that isn't getting the credit that he's due. That's my opinion.

SPEAKER_04: 50:43

Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 50:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 50:47

That's incredible to think about, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02: 50:49

Yeah, it is. It is incredible. I didn't Yeah, I didn't even think about that.

SPEAKER_01: 51:02

Since uh 76. That's all it's won. Till 2025. Still continuing on. Where Ted Jones changed the sport from 1950 to 1975, and his son, Ron Jones, changed the sport from 1976 until today.

SPEAKER_02: 51:19

Yeah. Amazing. All right, last name I have for you. Yep. Jim Harvey.

SPEAKER_01: 51:29

Unbelievable, super nice guy, and what a fun guy to drive for. He had all the faith in the world in me, and he's he his team was like a well-oiled machine. But the difference between Zubich and Harvey is Zuvich had oil all over the deck and the bills, and Harvey had hardly none. But we they put every time we ran the boat, we took the engine out, put it on the ground, pulled the blower off, went through, checked the quill shafts and the gears and stuff, and inspected everything, put it all back together again. And I know I didn't run the full season in 85 and 86, but every race we ran, we never broke anything. We never had a problem. And you could wipe up the bills with two paper towels, period.

SPEAKER_02: 52:18

That's that's a wild stat to me. That's just wild.

SPEAKER_01: 52:20

Oh, yeah, and what a fun boat to drive. I'm so glad I got the opportunity to drive a boat with nitrous oxide and and superchargers instead of turbochargers, and a boat that handled as nicely as the 82 Atlas Van Lines, which became the squire I drove in 85 and 86.

SPEAKER_02: 52:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 52:42

Yeah. I love Jim Harvey.

SPEAKER_02: 52:45

Yeah. Well, he he did a lot for the sport, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 52:48

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 52:50

Well, well, Tom, it's been so much fun talking with you. I'm sorry I took so much of your time today. Uh it was so fun talking about your career and just hearing those stories from you. Yep.

SPEAKER_01: 53:00

So no, it's uh I'm glad I was a small part of the sport. Like I said, uh I'm more proud of saving the Gold Cup race in Detroit. Unfortunately, it's not going on now, but not on my watch. Uh that was quite a challenge, and a whole story in itself is how that happened. And and uh, you know, not many people get the opportunity to be able to be the little kid from Ashland Avenue that grew up on the Fox Creek Canal to save a sport that was traditionally going on for over a hundred years in the city of Detroit. And I do have a prop proclamation from Wayne County and and uh mayor Kavanaugh uh thanking me for doing that. So that's very special.

SPEAKER_02: 53:49

Yeah, that's big. That's big. Well not the last that's the end of another interview for the interesting thing. If you like the interview and you like the content we're providing, social media, like and following the five, and following the five, and then we're gonna do that.